Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 25 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1475



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Coreward Maelstrom - Vargr
X-Boat specs
New Gaming Term!
Re: Character Generation Pages in WFW95
Re: Corsairs
King Richard (was Deckplan Question)
Re: New mailing list member...may I introduce myself?
An old dog leans a new trick (T4 Tasks)
Corsair deckplans
Re: Task System Blues
Re: Task System Blues
Why the MT system  _is_ a good choice
Why the MT system _is_ a good choice, pt II (retort to KB)
Re: T4 Task Rationale

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Coreward Maelstrom - Vargr

  This sounds exactly like what I thought was going to happen after the
introduction of the charisma-altering entertainment video thingie - since
I don't have my Traveller stuff with me, I can't remember what product it
appeared in (Traveller Adventure?  CT Vargr Module?  Cogs & Dogs? 
Something Else?). 

  Anyway, the idea was that a Vargr watching this entertainment thingie
would be programed through subliminal suggestion that some person (Vargr
leader) was "Really Great and His Butt Smells Good" - high Charisma in
game terms - and this thingie thus enhanced the reach of a single
political group. 

  This provides the background of why all the Vargr get together -
they get hooked on these entertainment tapes, or at least a whole bunch of
them do, and they go out and kill Impies.

  As for equipment, well, although we think of the Vargr as disorganized,
there are some fairly large political entities, at least according to the
alligiance codes from the sector data and the info in the CT Vargr module.
No doubt they build big honking battleships just like all the other races.

  On the other hand, the AHL class cruiser that is a trader in Vargr space
has never had to fire its big guns in anger, so perhaps it is really big
by Vargr standards.  Or maybe only rational Vargr get to be in command of
large Vargr warships...

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:00:24 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: X-Boat specs

Hi!

Could somebody please post me the specs of a Express boat and tender?
Preferably in TNE (FFS) format.

Thank you!

Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

If entropy is increasing, where is it coming from?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:17:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: New Gaming Term!

>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:51:12 -0500 (CDT)
>From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
>Subject: New Gaming Term!

>cajoule- v. The action of discouraging munchkinism by application of
>electrical, mechanical, or thermal energy.
>(ex. When Mike showed the player group his ex-Scout, ex-Navy, ex-Marine
>character, with a UPP of FFFFF1 and an infinite repeating PGMP, the GM had
>to cajoule him with a cattle prod to make him create a decent character.)
>Measured in joules.

>Many thanks to Harold Hale, whose typo gave me the inspiration. (and a lot
>of laughs!)

>Mike Lee

Heres a adaptation of the aforememntioned world.

Megacajoule (Mcj)- v. 1. The action of using unghodly amounts of energy to 
discourage a  munchkin from taking over an entire world, sector, or faction 
through the use of killing off of major storyline characters.  Original use 
was in MT, but has been known to be used in TNE.  2. n. One million 
cajoules.

:-)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 13:30:09 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Character Generation Pages in WFW95

Have read comments on the draft of this, but can't read WFW95 so 
haven't read the draft itself.  Apologies in advance for the rant.


TMM (*the* Marc Miller) writes:

> I'm looking at severely crunching down what levels of Edu mean... Attached
> text from the Chargen tables.

> 
> MENTAL CHARACTERISTIC EQUIVALENTS
> Value	Int	         Edu
> 0	Braindead	Illiterate
> 1		
> 2		        Basic Reading
> 3	Impaired	Grade School
> 4		        Ed Certificate
> 5	Below Average	High School
> 6	Average 	Associate
> 7	Average 	Bachelors
> 8	Average 	Masters
> 9	Above Average	
> A	Superior	Doctorate
> B	Very Superior	
> C	Gifted	
> D	Very Gifted	
> E	Genius	
> F

No problems with that scale for Intelligence (maybe E = Outstanding, 
F = Genius) but I have severe reservations about the Education scale.

If Education means the minimum level of Education possible to have 
that qualification, maybe this is a reasonable scale.  It all depends 
on what Education means; I've always seen it as a function of 
ability to learn and study, level and breadth of knowledge, and 
perhaps adaptability of thought/knowledge.  Specific knowledge is in 
the realm of skills.

Formal education produces Education, and technical education skills.  
These two are not mutually exclusive in the same course, but time 
spent on one precludes time spent on the other.  I would like to see 
Edu and skills more of an either/or in advanced (post-18) educations.

Whatever my "intrinsic" Edu on entering college, I will tend to 
either gain Edu or skills.  If I can learn already, I'll gain 
background and depth; if I can't, I'll be taught to learn.  I'd say 
the average would be +2 Edu / Skill-4, with extremes of +4 Edu / 
Skill-2 (very academic, elite college e.g. Oxbridge, Ivy League, 
Grande Ecole) and +0 Edu / Skill-6 (exclusively technical education, 
purely by rote.)  Note that academic will always include some skills, 
but tech. won't always educate.

Note also that +4 or higher Edu gain is possible in character 
generation in a year, so I don't see why college can't do it...

Note that if college provides an educational benefit of min_Edu 
(i.e., if your Edu is less than the min., you receive the min level 
of Edu, so an Edu 6 Masters student would get Edu 8 on completion)
rather than +n, college becomes attractive only to the low-Edu, which 
seems perverse!  I don't believe an Edu 6 student can become Edu 8 on 
a course which an Edu 8 person doesn't gain a point or two of Edu (in 
or out of the classroom).

IME, an academic post-18 education provides:
Edu
Specific skills
Social skills and contacts
"Hobby" skills

in something like that order.  I think college should have a Social 
table as well as an academic one: you can be good at your major, or 
you can have a life as well...



> GRADUATE SCHOOL
> 	Graduate School is the first step in pursuing an advanced education. 
> Prerequisite: BA, BS, or BFA.
> 	Admission:	 7 -; DM +1 if Int 9+
> 	Perseverance:	 7 -; DM +1 if Int A+
> 	Honors:	 4 -; DM +1 if Int B+
> Academic Skills	Honors Benefits
> 	1	Jack of all Trades		Degree carries
> 	2	Academic	the suffix honors
> 	3	Instruction	
> 	4	Technical	
> 	5	Performance		Receive +1 Edu.
> 	6	Computer	
> 	Roll once per year or choose from Major.
> 
> 	Declared Major: Indicate one skill within Physical Science, Social Science,
> or Performance as Major.
> 	Education Increase: Edu increased to 8.
> 	Academic Degree: Social Sciences: MA; Physical Sciences: MS; Performance:
> MFA. Degree is not granted unless Major level is 6+ (9+ for Ph.D).


I cannot tell you how much I hate this.  I really think this is a 
totally false picture of advanced education, in all respects, and 
I fail to see how it improves the game.

First of all, there should be "social" options -- perhaps rolls on 
the appropriate tables from the Scholar career?

Second, I hope "major level" means skill+stat in the Major -- 
although it ought to be more or less automatic to have such scores.
Under *no* circumstances should it mean skill level in the Major:
higher degrees are not only about ability in a single field of study, 
let alone a monomaniacal concentration on one area.  (Not that you 
don't need the former, or some of the latter.)

To put together a PhD thesis, you need Research, maybe Writing, and 
appropriate skills for the topic.  You will have developed a number 
of skills of greater or lesser direct relevance.  You'll have been 
exposed to politics, bureaucracy, and scarce resources.  What I 
estimate I gained from mine was:
Research-1, Computer-1, Science-1 (Physics? Chemistry?), 
Instruction-1, Guitar-1, +1 or +2 Edu, Diplomacy-0, Fast Talk-0
and I'm sure I needed Writing-1+ for my thesis.  Only the first 3 
were directly relevant to my work...


Thirdly, replace Performance by Bureaucracy skill -- far more likely 
to be developed in the course of a Master's degree.

I really hate the idea of a PhD (hons) but since it's science 
*fiction* I'll let it lie...

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:42:12 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Corsairs

>some people can't see a rationale for corsairs...

My quote, and some other agreed, was;

>>Personally I could never figure out why the Imperium would allow
>>construction of a purpose-built privateer in imperial shipyards, capable
>>of hijacking entire 100ton vessels whole hog (in addition to other,
>>strictly paramilitary modifications).<<

I was speaking of circa 1100 Imperial space, the only "real" wars of the
era (in the Spinward Marches) were with the Zhos, whose patrol ships would
make mincemeat of the corsair as designed, and could detect and outrun the
same ship easily by the rules of that game (CT).

The Corsair is a ship purposly designed to be able to capture Imperial
shipping (Type S mostly) and outfox imperial navy patrol vessels by
concealing its identity.  Zhos are unlikely to be fooled by such tatics,
assuming the prevalence of psionic navy officers implied in that era.  Some
have suggested "pirate shipyards" build them, which I find unlikely within
Imperial borders, others refer to privateers and letters of Marque, but I
find almost no opponents likely to be damaged by such a policy (except
perhaps the Sword Worlds - a good candidate for such tactics, but hardly
worthy of building an entire class of ship to defeat).

In the end, the corsair must be seen as a pirate vessel pure and simple,
and pirates in general do not have the resources or need to design and
build such a ship (much easier and cheaper to modify an existing ship
class).  In addition, governments do not generally condone the construction
of pirate vessels in their own shipyards.

Now, there is a significant likelyhood that the Vargr *would* build such a
ship in large numbers and export them to Imperium based human outlaws.  The
vessels would not be sold at your neighborhood Stermetal dealership though,
and would be an adventure in itself to acquire.  Oh, and if one arrived at
a starport where a closer look could be taken, seizure would be the norm.
("Oh and what do we have here...Nuclear missiles too! how nice of you to
drop in!")

All in all, the thing worked OK if you did not require the "big picture" to
be too focussed, which I think is an appropriate attitude for CT.  In the
same way the AD&D world could not usually be justified economically.  The
corsair, and most CT designs, were never meant to stand up to the harsh
light of economic analysis , they were meant to be fun and interesting from
an individual perspective.  Now, though we have the corsair in a T4
adventure...Ok, but I'll look at it as a Vargr made Import.

It really wasn't until some later supplements and, really, Megatraveller,
with its volumes measured in kiloliters and cubic meters, its specific
numbers of gas giants and planetary belts, and the somewhat more scientific
approach to space combat, that a hard look started to be taken of the
larger economic and other realities of the Imperium.

Something gained, but something lost.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:52:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: King Richard (was Deckplan Question)

GypsyComet said;

>  Worse than GDW, however, was FASA. The various ships in Adventure
>Class Ships Vol. 1 & 2, as well as the individual ships released earlier
>were bad or off-tonnage almost without exception. The much touted King
>Richard, a 5000-ton liner, has almost enough fuel volume to fill a good
>sized bathtub.

Fortunately, the King Richard's ship stats has little or nothing to do with
any of the funfilled adventures which take place onboard her.  The deck
plans gave me quite a laugh when I saw them though.  5000 tons indeed!

Don't let the above keep anyone from picking up the aforesaid adventure if
available (for under $10 or so).  Its value is in the NPC descriptions and
descriptive sections of "The Most Luxurious Liner in The Galaxy".

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
brenton@psfc.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:03:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New mailing list member...may I introduce myself?

Harold Hare said;
>JumpSix@aol.com writes:
>
>>Ya know I am REAL happy to see Traveller alive and well. I was just looking
>>at material I used to use when I started playing in high school (1979 or so)
>>I thought Id hit search on the internet and found yall!
>
>   Fresh meat!  Somebody get the charcoal, I'll get the Weber and the
>lighter fluid.  :-)

LOX...lighter fluid of the engineering types.

Check out;
http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/

scroll to the examples section

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:09:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: An old dog leans a new trick (T4 Tasks)

Greetings,

I had expressed an opinion about the current task system and said that I 
would vote for a change similar to MT.  But having lurked for a while 
regarding this thread and seen all the argument sides I would like to hearby 
change my vote.

Before it was for MT.  Now it looks like I might be siding with the 
improved, tweaked T4.1 system.

It seems there is a new character creation process somewhere, where can I 
get a copy?  Must have missed it in the inrush of TML's lately :)

The old version in T4 I was using did not utilise the university or school 
process, basicaly like the Old CT/MT which made characters with skills and 
stats that were (somehwhat) compatable to MT.  This may have created my 1st 
opinion.  But if the CharGen system is going to be atuned to the T4.1 
system, then yes, I will use that system.

Yes ladies and gentlemen, he CAN be taught! :-)

It looks like T4.1 will work out after all(with some tweaking).  My vote is 
with the Marc group.

Oh,  here's an idea I got from one of my players to reduce muchkinism. 
 Instead of rolling for stats, where some people may tend to "luck out" with 
the dice, have them generate stats with a point based system.  I think 50 
points is a good number, it averages to about an 8 per stat with 2 left 
over.  Sure you can have a 15(F) STR but the other stats will slight for it. 
 This could be an 'optional' generation meathod. Hell, that 'fantasy game' 
has got 6 meathods to roll stats!  :-)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:52:03 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@dk-online.dk>
Subject: Corsair deckplans

23/6-97 Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> I do not recall any CT product (I don't remember the corsair showing up
in
> any other version of Traveller) that featured the Corsair's deck plans
> (almost every other CT 'standard' class was either in an adventure or
> Traders and Gunboats) so I doubt that any deckplan for that class exists
as
> yet (except perhaps in someone's private collection).

Yes, in my private collection are deckplans for the MT corsair. It was made
by looking at the few pictures of the ship that I know about, but I had to
make it somewhat longer than the silhouette pictured in Starship Operator's
Manual. It still has the same silhouette and look of the corsair, though.

The deckplans are fairly datailed and my players are quite happy about it.
Would people be interested in seeing them?

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:19:35 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Task System Blues

>That's my feeling on things.  You can agree or disagree with it as
>you like.

Very well written!

I agree.

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:23:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Task System Blues

- -> 1) MT seriously undervalued attributes, and I'm coming to the 
- -> conclusion that most of the house rules I've seen discussed on this 
Hey i am not proposing to use the MT system unchanged...
I just want to see a similar task system, maybe one where the 
attributes are divided by three. I just want to roll two dice however 
and i wantr to have task difficulty determined by a target number, 
not by rolling more and more dice!
- -> tend to do so as well.  I started out when the new system came out 
- -> a confirmed MT devotee.  I'm becoming less of one daily.  While I 
- -> think that a high level of skill can make up for a relative lack 
- -> ability, this is generally not the case.  
But Little skill and high ability does not make a great specialist! 
It just makes a catastophe waiting to happen!  ("I'll fix that 
jumpdrive, i have Dex and Edu F and Engeneering-1. I saw Scottie do 
it once! ...... Booooom!")
- -> 
- -> Count me amongst those who think it makes as least as much sense, and 
- -> is a lot easier to use than the square root of an attribute, or some 
- -> such.  It's simple, it's elegant, and frankly, of any task system 
- -> I've seen its probably the easiest out there for a new player to 
- -> get a handle on.  <G>
You're gettingf unreasonable here! A simple division is a world of 
difference to taking a square root (even though meant humorously, 
it's not reasonable). Every child from grade 3-4 onwards can do these 
simple divisions in no time!

- -> This mailing list, depending on who you ask, has anywhere from 
- -> 300-500 members.  Something like 15-20,000 copies of T4 have sold.  
- -> Like it or not, even if all of TML tells IG with one voice that they 
- -> want a specific change to the task system (which has not happened). 
- -> It is still only a tiny minority of the number of people who have 
- -> bought and may continue to buy T4 books.  Ultimately, IG will live or 
- -> die on how well they satisfy those 15-20,000 customers (of which TML 
- -> is, admittedly, a devoted faction).
But if a high percentage of us is saying "yes there must be change" 
it is a strong hint that many not on the list think along the same 
lines! We are a general cut trough the population of Traveller 
players and what we say can be applied to others as well.
The reason for us to put up this vote is to unify the TMKL under one 
banner. This is supposed to be a democratic election, now going 
through the preliminaries. The winner of the vote will be the 
official TML-choice and i hope that it will be some sort of concensus.
- -> Now a bug-stomped version of the rulebook comes out.  It says, oh, 
- -> btw, that $250-300 you just spent over the last 10 months is now 
- -> nearly worthless, because we've replaced the task system, and combat 
- -> system, but we know you'll LOVE the new one, and its so much 
- -> better than the old one, and eventually we'll come out with new 
- -> versions of the old supplements for you to buy to replace the ones we 
- -> just made obsolete.
Change does not invalidate the old stuff because you don't have to go 
with it. WEhat you bought is still good, although the mainstream 
doesn't support it. Ask the TNE players. They don't feel their money 
went to waste, since they can still use their materials and still 
have fun games even though there is T4 now. Adapting the new stuff o 
the old rules is not difficult, it's easy!
- -> It is my considered opinion that probably any task system somebody 
- -> could come up with is going to have a sizable number of people who 
- -> want to "fix" it, because it is "broken."  This is not picking on 
- -> anybody in general, but I've seen about 20 different variations on 
- -> the theme of task system come off the TML in the past week, all with 
- -> variations on their variation of the T4 task system.  Saying you are 
- -> against something is not the same as saying you are for something 
- -> else.  
We are just in the process of finding a concensus. We are showing 
Marc the different options, and show him (it all revolves arount what 
he chooses to do!) our support for a given system. After that, the 
decision is up to him!  



Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:39:38 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Why the MT system  _is_ a good choice

- -> 1 Automatic success on 12 and automatic failure on 2. This rule and all
- -> otherv rules with fixed automishap/success are generally there because the
- -> task system designer couldn't figure out a way to generate differentiated
- -> results with arbtrarily low propabilities. OK I'll try to play a violin
- -> piece from Paganini: The -DMs and task difficulty would be mind boggling
- -> but I'd still have 1/36 chance of success.
i didn't like that either, but that could be changed. I am not just 
advocationg ther pure MT-System, but any variation of it!
- -> 
- -> 3. The time roll. Whenever you roll a task you should be told by the
- -> referee BEFOREHAND how long it will take as the task roll is done at the
- -> end of the task attempt. Joe Bazooka is trying to disarm the bomb before it
- -> goes off (5 minutes). He succeeds at the task but he fails to do it in
- -> time?
The time roll, was in my opinion, an exellent idea! You know how long 
something wil take on average, but might take longer or less. Just 
like real life! If you have only five minutes to do something and 
fear the time won't be enough, better make it a hasty task. Don't 
want to risk hasty? Take the risk of taking too long. These are the 
choices you have to make in real life, as well. I loved that! 



- -> 4. The Exceptional success thing. Most of the time a Exceptional success
- -> was more common than a regular one! What does Exceptional really mean?
That might be changed as well! Make it 3+ for example! Be Free! 
Exeptional to me always meant: better than average!
- -> 
- -> 5. Uncertain tasks had entirely different propabilities and outcomes than
- -> regular tasks therefore making it impossible to convert a task between
- -> normal and uncertain. When I tried MT I let the ref roll 1D6 secretly and
- -> the player the other which worked fairly well as I didn't tell the player
- -> the result.
Another possible good variation of the MT task system. As i said, 
never take something as it is, fiddle around with it until it suits 
you. If a MT-like system is chosen, this is a good idea for adaption! 

- -> 6 A characteristic was only interesting as to wether it was a 5, 10 or 15
- -> in value. Anything in between was ignored.
That's why there are other suggestions around: The Thre Sytem, the 
Fourer, ...  (I very much like Carlos's idea f.e.)
But this also reflects thast there is not much difference between 
f.e. 7 and 8.
- -> The reason why so many of us talk fondly of MT Task system is that we
- -> really mean the MT days with excellent quality DGP products and good
- -> quality GDW products.
No, the task system was a stroke of genius as well, not perfect, but 
better than todays!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 17:10:09 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Why the MT system _is_ a good choice, pt II (retort to KB)

- -> If you read and digest this post, you will see why the MT system is 
- -> not all it is cracked up to be by many members of this list.
O.k., lets take apart these arguments one by one! ;-)

- -> Problem #1:  The Stat Problem
- -> 
- -> Your character just finished med school.  He's got a Medical-3 
- -> rating.  His Edu is 9, and you are attempting to treat another person 
- -> in your party.
- -> Now, there's this NPC medic aboard also.  He's got Medical-3 as 
- -> but he's only got Edu-5.
- -> In MT, both characters have the SAME chance to succeed.  Because of 
- -> MT's stat division, both will have a target number of 8+.  Both have 
- -> a 41.67% chance of success.
This is a problem, indeed, but there have been many suggestions for 
improvement already. Take Carlos 3-based system. Now every third 
point counts! Do you know the difference between someone who has Edu 
7 and someone who has Edu 8??? I guess not!
Also it would be a possiblity to make ExSuccess Easier for those who 
are closer to the next "switch". Taking a three-based system, someone 
who has Edu 6 would be right on the switch, getting +2 on his task 
and +0 on ExSucc. Someone with Edu 8 would get +2 on the task and +2 
for ExSucc! That would take into account the difference in ability!

- - > -> Problem #2:  Spectacular Success Problem.
- -> Using the MT rules, his target number becomes 3+.  This means, if 
- -> rolls a 3, he will achieve marginal success.  If he rolls a 4, he 
- -> will achieve regular success.  And, if he rolls a 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 
- -> 11, or 12, he as achieved spectacular success.
Then maybe there should be a 3+ necessary...
- -> Doesn't anybody but me see the problem with this when applied to 
- -> The guy's got a 8.33% chance of rolling regular success, and a 
- -> whopping 83.33% chance of rolling SS.
What exactly do you define as SS? Exceptional to me always meant: 
Better than average success.If something is very easy for somebody it 
is much easier for him to be "better than average". 
Example: I am fixing a stardrive that is broken. That should be a 
difficult task in all books!
Marginal Success: I jury-rig it to make the last jump it needs to get 
us home, but then needs general overhaul.
Regular Success: I fix it, and it works allright for a while, a 
checkup would be in order, however since the ride is still not 
without bumps.
SS: I fix it and there won't be any problems again for a while. It 
purrs like a kitten again!

Other Example: I want to retrieve information from a database: Should 
be fairly easy.
Marginal: I retrieve some info, but not everything i need!
Regular: I get everything i need!
SS: I get everything i need plus more, some intersting bits and 
something that might help me later!

There is nothing wrong with having lots of SS! If something is this 
easy to do for somebody, he will achieve SS very easily as well. 
After all, SS doesn't mean a result that is Exeptional for him, but 
better than average or needed!
- -> 
- -> Problem #3:  Regular Success
- -> 
- -> OK, here's a third problem with MT.  Let's compare our medic we've 
- -> been using to a Medical-1 character.  Both characters have Edu 9.  
- -> Both characters are attempting an Average task.
- -> 
- -> Our doctor has a target number of 3+.  The Medical-1 NPC has a target 
- -> number of 5+, and this is how it should be.
Where do you take that from? If both characters have tha same values, 
they need to roll the same target number!
 
- -> This is due to the bell-curve like nature of rolling 2 six 
- -> siders--the middle numbers are easier to hit than the numbers on the 
- -> end.
And that's the way life is as well! It's easier to do an average task 
than to be able to do what is very hard or impossible. Still 
possible, but verry seldom!
- -> Clearly, from what I've stated here, MT is not the answer.  I believe 
- -> with all my heart that KBv2.0 is.  The only criticism I see about it 
- -> is that it requires too many dice and that it is more complex than 
- -> T4.
Or is it? I agree, it needs some tweaking, but it's better than 
rolling endless numbers of dice. It's easy to handle and even easier 
to understand. It's adaptable to every circumstance and it works!  

- -> First off, we are not talking about that many more dice--1 or 2 at 
- -> the most over T4.
Up to five more than MT! Thats quite a lot to me!
- -> Second, the system is not complicated at all.  I'd posit that it is 
- -> simpler than MT, and I can express it in one equation:
- -> 
- -> Target Number = Attribute + Experience
- -> 
- -> where  Experience = Skill x 3
 
- -> That's not math that is done in combat.  You do it once, write it 
- -> on your character sheet, and then you use that figure to add to your 
- -> attribute--whatever it's current combat value.
So youre saying that multiplacation is no math??? I'd say that 
divisions are not harder to do than multiplications, so this 
comparison just doesn't walk. 

- -> I'm telling you.  I did my homework with KBv2.0.  It is the best 
- -> system out there for T4.
I am telling you, we, the proponents of MT, did our homework for it 
as well. It may need some adaptions, but is in general the best task 
system there is for TRAVELLER! 
- -> Give it a shot in just one of your games.  It will make a believer 
- -> out of you too.
Ditto. ;-)

 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 17:20:13 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: T4 Task Rationale

- -> Well, this is debatable since you dexterity doesn't tend
- -> to decrease until late in life (after retirement) and children
- -> aren't usually doctors.  In any case, even if it were the
- -> case I would say that someone who is totally mediocre is
- -> hardly doctor material either (not without a lot of training
- -> at least.
Of course children won't be doctors (doogie Howser excluded ;-)
But still when trying to average the poulation in any given attribute 
(Soc excluded, which i believe has an average lower than 7) it should 
be very close to seven as all the pop should be included in the 
statistic! 




Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1475
***********************************
